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Kalielar
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:13 pm  Reply with quote
Druid


Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 1146
Location: Shattanooga Shoo Shoo

Looting rules change a little in the higher level instances (50+). For example, what used to simply be Group Loot: need vs. greed on uncommons, will now be Master Looter: set to rare and usually include the '1 Blue, 1 Set' rule. (Green items are usually treated as vendor items at this point, so there's generally no rolling on them, but if you need it, it can usually be negotiated.)

So say you're doing Scholomance, and you roll need on a blue rare set of boots and you won it, you can't roll on anything else that's blue for the run. That's simply because it's harder to get any rewards when there's more than 5 players in a party. And after six hours of running a dungeon, some people get a little pissy if they got nothing out of it except for a repair bill.

Often, whatever blue is not usable by anyone is sharded, then the shard is rolled on by those that didn't win anything at the end of the night, so that hopefully everyone walks away with at least something for their efforts. It's really just a way to prevent an angry mob riot.

So...... as if that wasn't complicated enough, there's the DKP System for the epic purple phat lewt that's superior to and even rarer than a blue.

Here's the WoWwiki information on Dragon Kill Points:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Dragon_Kill_Points

"Points are awarded to players for accomplishing certain raid-oriented tasks (attending a raid, killing a boss, etc.). Players then spend or bid DKPs to acquire loot."

Here's an example of DKP costs for Molten Core drops:
http://s13.invisionfree.com/Late_Night_Raiders/index.php?showtopic=79


I've done three runs into MC with my current raid group and I've since earned 28 DKP points. Last night, the awesome Cenarion Bracers dropped off a boss, and I had enough DKP to buy it. And out of the druids that needed it, I had the highest DKP balance, so I won 'em. And there ya have it, my first epic piece ever. Last night, my epic cherry was finally popped! Good times, my friends. Good times.

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Adeena
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:06 pm  Reply with quote
Hunter


Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 266

Oh there's a set DKP price, that's a twist...

So lets say for instance then, 2 druids in your raid wanted that epic last night. Would the two of you roll to see who 'gets to' spend the DKP on it, or would you burn up your saved up DKP and whoever has more gets the item?

I ask because lets say for example:
Druid A has 15 DKP
Druid B has 20 DKP

PhatEpixOMG!LewtZ! drops and it 'costs' 10 DKP, now both of the oomKins happen to want this item, does it go to the guy who's been raiding for 6 months and has a crushing amount of built up DKP, or is there some randomness to it allowing the realtively new guy a chance at actually getting loot?

Furthermore (gawd Ive always hated this DKP crap, and everyone does it different)

If:
Druid A has 150 DKP
Druid B has 200 DKP

And a 50 DKP item drops, assuming its a no roll but "bid out" type of thing, and both manaBatteries want it so they start feverishly bidding... Am I to understand that Druid B is going to win on this item costing 155-160 DKP (a nearly 100 pt jump from it's regular price) merely because she happened to be a vet, raiding with a fellow vet and now has burned up months worth of built up raiding points?

Here's another:

Rogue A has 15 DKP
Rogue B has 20 DKP

But a OMGHunterWeapon costing 30 DKP drops... Because neither have enough built up points, is it going to get hahaSharded in front of them?

Or:

Hunter A has 40 DKP
Rogue A has 30 DKP

Rogue dagger drops costing 10 DKP who 'gets' it, if the hunter WANTs it?

Meh, have to go eheh, back in a bit
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Tryxx
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:37 am  Reply with quote
Moderator


Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 193

Adeena wrote:
Does it go to the guy who's been raiding for 6 months and has a crushing amount of built up DKP, or is there some randomness to it allowing the realtively new guy a chance at actually getting loot?


In our particular raid, it goes to the one who has the highest DKP -- but only if they request the item. Everyone who wants a particular drop whispers the raid leader and she distributes it then based on the highest DKP. There is randomness in it though, as we saw with Kal getting the bracers last night; could have been that the druid(s) with more DKP may have been holding out for something even better or may have had it already, or perhaps weren't able to make it that night (a lot of regulars in our group defected to Rexxar). But generally yeah, the idea is that you earn your epics by paying your dues with the raid group.

I wasn't aware of any bidding though -- I think it's just whoever has the most DKP on a given day wins it. (2 with the same would probably roll).

Adeena wrote:
Because neither have enough built up points, is it going to get hahaSharded in front of them?


No, thank god, you can go negative in DKP -- under the assumption of course that you'll make it up later.

Adeena wrote:
Rogue dagger drops who 'gets' it, if the hunter WANTs it?


I'm not sure -- but honestly, I don't think a hunter would waste the DKP when they're really there for full Beaststalker.
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Kalielar
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:47 am  Reply with quote
Druid


Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 1146
Location: Shattanooga Shoo Shoo

If one Druid has 97 DKP and Healing Touch (Rank 10) and is running at 17 miles per hour, and another Druid has Gift of the Wild (Rank 2) and is dashing in Catform, then who occupes to seek me I wanted to walk?

My answer to this, and all your questions is the same: "Beats me!" Laughing

I think it depends on the Raid group. Though there's a general average DKP cost, the Raid leader pretty much can set the distribution and price of a particular piece, and how much you earn (for example, some Raid groups give extra DKP for punctuality, or double DKP for first-boss kills). Like I got the bracers for just 18 DKP, though other Raids price it at 28 DKP.

Here's the breakdown of my current Raid's DKP costs for Tier 1 epics:

Boots [20 DKP]
Chest [34 DKP]
Belt / Bracers [18 DKP]
Leggings [30 DKP]
Helm [32 DKP]
Shoulders [24 DKP]
Gloves [22 DKP]

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Adeena
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:37 pm  Reply with quote
Hunter


Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 266

Tryxx wrote:
Adeena wrote:
Rogue dagger drops who 'gets' it, if the hunter WANTs it?


I'm not sure -- but honestly, I don't think a hunter would waste the DKP when they're really there for full Beaststalker.


You'd be surprised +AGI and +%crit appeal to many builds, but lets look at a more realistic example... A shadow priest wanting warlock gear. Does someone determine need, or is it all based on who has the DKP to throw around?

I'm not totally against DKP and don't mean for everyone to put up with my pissing and moaning eheh, I realize it's merits. It's a old system that's been around since the MMO caveman, I've used it in 3 other MMO's I've personally played... Again, my only point of contention with it is how different everyone seems to do it...

Why can't everyone just do things MY way?! Smile

Kalielar wrote:
Boots [20 DKP]
Chest [34 DKP]
Belt / Bracers [18 DKP]
Leggings [30 DKP]
Helm [32 DKP]
Shoulders [24 DKP]
Gloves [22 DKP]

Why should these costs fluctuate? Shouldn't they all just be 20 DKP for instance, why would I care which piece I get in which order, they're all equally important to me. An why would anyone else care which piece of my set is which, it's all the same type of shard to them, who sets these prices anyways, it's not like there's value in a BoP item (with exception of the shard)

Bah... Well anyhow, pretty sure I flushed that out of my system eheh... Thanks for putting up with me.

So tell me this, how much do you two rack up on a average run? Or better yet, are you really going to run the same raids for the next couple months to get your OmgPhatEpix, only to have to do it all over again with the level cap is raised to 70?
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Kalielar
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:00 pm  Reply with quote
Druid


Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 1146
Location: Shattanooga Shoo Shoo

Adeena wrote:
Does someone determine need, or is it all based on who has the DKP to throw around?


I think in the beginning, when everyone is generally epic-less, distributing epics by class is the rule. However, as a raid group continues to progress and earn their sets, then I think anything goes. Although, again as noted, usually unusable items are sharded then rolled upon by anyone that didn't get anything at all. There is also by the way, usually a Raid Bank for items that are not sharded that players can purchase from.

I have heard that the nicest, friendliest people can turn into vicious frothing animals over the high tier epics, so I haven't really questioned the system much. But I have seen Pallys running around wearing epic cloth +healing pieces, so I think that need is negotiable depending on the vibe/maturity of the group and the master looter.


Adeena wrote:
I'm not totally against DKP and don't mean for everyone to put up with my pissing and moaning eheh, I realize it's merits. It's a old system that's been around since the MMO caveman, I've used it in 3 other MMO's I've personally played... Again, my only point of contention with it is how different everyone seems to do it...


A.) We love your pissing and moaning, heh. B.) I agree, there doesn't seem to be one straightforward explanation for the DKP system. It's like Algebra III, except nobody really knows what X and N stand for. It's certainly left me scratching my head a few times. And WoW is my first MMO, so you probably understand the DKP system a whole lot better than I.


Adeena wrote:
Why should these costs fluctuate?


Inflation? Supply and demand? I honestly don't know really. From what I can tell, it seems semi-subjective, but at least related to the difficulty levels faced and the time committed. For example, the Cenarion Bracers seem to just drop from the same mob, a boss that's somewhat early in the instance. A boss that's say 6 hours into the Core, would probably drop the 'more expensive' piece than a boss that's only 2 hours into the Core.

However, there are still many variables, enough so that even a new raid member like myself can be eligible to spend DKP. Some raids in fact allow you to go into -negative DKP with the understanding that you would eventually earn the balance. I am not certain if my current group allows it.

I was invited to another group (alas, I cannot commit to two MC groups because of the boss lock-out thing) where all of their druids are fully equipped with entire Cenarion sets. So they've said that even though I haven't earned the DKP yet, I would be the designated recipient for all things Druid, though I would still have to put in the time. (They constantly tease me for not joining them yet, saying they use Cenarion robes to wash their cars. Crying or Very sad )


Adeena wrote:
Bah... Well anyhow, pretty sure I flushed that out of my system eheh... Thanks for putting up with me.


We're happy to be your virtual colonic. Wink


Adeena wrote:
So tell me this, how much do you two rack up on a average run?


Well, it usually breaks down something like this in our current MC raid group (again it changes per raid group): we get 1 DKP just for showing up, you get I believe 2 extra points if you stay the entire run, and then you get I think 3-6 DKP per boss kill per night. (And you get double points for the first boss kill.) So in just three runs, Tryxx has 36 unspent DKP points. It racks up actually faster than I expected it to. I would say on average, it's about 11-12 DKP per run. But so far, that's only for 2 Boss Kills we've been on. As the group learns the instance better and progresses through it faster each time, we should be downing more bosses per run in the near future, and thus earning more DKP per run as I understand it. So 12 DKP per run, with two runs a week, nets me an average of 24 DKP a week at this junction.


Adeena wrote:
Or better yet, are you really going to run the same raids for the next couple months to get your OmgPhatEpix, only to have to do it all over again with the level cap is raised to 70?


For the time being, yes. I'm not really in it so much for the phat epix, but rather more to experience content that I've never seen before. (The epics of course interest me for use in PvP, I won't lie. And for pickin' up hawwwwt newbs, haha. Ahem, kidding.) It's also a different kind of adrenaline rush running with a 40-man, I guess, so for the time being I'm totally into raiding in general. Actually, I'm just happy to be invited at all, considering I'm still a sub and not a regular yet, and especially to a fun and patient group that is experienced but still willing to take the time with new 60s. Plus there's the boon of making 38 new friendx0rz!

(Note: You don't have to be in a regularly scheduled weekly raid group if you don't want to dedicate the time and effort to just one group. I know a number of people that rely on non-DKP semi-PuGs to outfit themselves entirely in full epic sets. Except for MC, we are currently not commited to any groups for ZG, Ony, BWL or AQ.)


*p.s. We love our current MC raid group for many many reasons (the mature and friendly people, the vibe, the times it runs, etc.), but also because it has three couples in it, that are all coincidentally rogue/druid pairings that are all coincidentally on Macintoshes, haha.

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Kalielar Timberlake
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Adeena
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:15 pm  Reply with quote
Hunter


Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 266

n00bSauze wrote:
I have heard that the nicest, friendliest people can turn into vicious frothing animals over the high tier epics
I've never really understood why people get SO bent out of shape over loot... I mean it really pisses me off when some tard rolls need for something their not going to use for instance, but that's more so that I get upset for how freaking stupid they are more over how they may or may not have screwed me or a fellow party member, but I don't loose any sleep over it, it's not like I have zero chance of getting the item again and for me... It's all about the keeling anyhow

n00bSauze wrote:
you probably understand the DKP system a whole lot better than I.
eheh, nah, think working under so many different DKP systems only serves to further confuse me... I am very much looking forward to running some raids with everyone, but like you, its more for the experience than the loot...
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Kalielar
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:55 pm  Reply with quote
Druid


Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 1146
Location: Shattanooga Shoo Shoo

Adeena wrote:
I've never really understood why people get SO bent out of shape over loot...


I agree. In the end, it is still virtual. And yeah, you can always go again and keep running an instance until you get what you want. To that extent, the only thing that pisses me off are the people that go above and beyond to be asshats. I don't understand the point of ninja looting items that you can't use. *boggles* There's this shady twit named Lazuras who is quite a gem of a turdbag, bent on making his mark as a ninja and purposely going out of his way to really infuriate people, even me. He even made a video, aw.

An interesting loot squabble I heard about recently though involved a BoE epic that's worth something ridiculous like 4000+ Gold. A warrior needed it, and was willing to equip and make it soulbound right on the spot. But because of the high value of the item, the entire group burst into a vicious name-calling argument because of its high-profit sellability. Hell, somebody's going to equip it eventually, why not just give it to someone within the group to improve their stats and performance, thus benefiting the group as a whole? *shrug*

n00bSauze wrote:
<--- HAY! I noticed that, heh.

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Kalielar Timberlake
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Adeena
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:43 pm  Reply with quote
Hunter


Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 266

Kalielar wrote:
n00bSauze wrote:
<--- HAY! I noticed that, heh.


Very Happy
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Sefid
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:50 pm  Reply with quote
Druid


Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 288

ok...confused....I'll just kill things and say hell with it.
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Adeena
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:21 am  Reply with quote
Hunter


Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 266

Sefid wrote:
ok...confused....I'll just kill things and say hell with it.
Oh I like her, can I keep her Kali? Very Happy
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Thalonious
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:40 am  Reply with quote
Paladin


Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 267
Location: Stormwind cathedral

Seriously, these DKP are so wierd. So groups do them differently each?!?!? Christ.

Anyways, I hear they are gonna add new things for players who don't raid to get some decent shit so they don't get pwned in BG. Blizz is adding 5-10 man group bosses to dungeons with new l33t epic sets for people who don't want to hassle with 39 other ninjas and so forth. I read it somewhere on the WoW forums. Eff the DKPs!!!!!!111!!

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Kalielar
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:47 pm  Reply with quote
Druid


Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 1146
Location: Shattanooga Shoo Shoo

Adeena wrote:
Oh I like her, can I keep her Kali? Very Happy


Well, I suppose it's alright, but it's your responsibility to feed her and take her for walks. Smile


And yeah, Thal's right. After much fuss, Blizz is going to add more ways to achieve epics for the casual players that can't commit to weekly raiding in 40-mans. In addition to the smaller dungeons, there will be better rewards for PvP, crafting and gaining factional rep.

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Kalielar Timberlake
(\\\\"\(.:..:.)/\\\\") Kaboomkin!
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